It might seem a little cold, but Pepper WAS trying to have a day to himself and twice now was interrupted by someone looking for emotional validation and support. That seems to be the main reason anyone seeks him out lately, and that can’t be a good feeling.
if he was really setting the boundary he needs to, he’d be turning Achilles down completely, or at least being upfront that he was expecting a night to himself and wasn’t completely prepared for this. this is passive aggression at best and it’s going to make the upcoming conversation awful for everyone involved
He is setting the boundary, and he is trying to help Achilles. He is just doing these things imperfectly. Because, as we can tell, Pepper is working on a lower bandwidth at the moment.
It’d be worse if he turned down Achilles completely, wouldn’t it? Same goes for if he completely ignored his own needs and focused on Achilles. This is the right move, he’s just being a bit cold about it.
I just can’t see this conversation going anywhere except pepper getting angry or upset because hes clearly not in the position to be having it. he’s not saying no because he’s a control freak who wants a pulse on what’s going on with everyone else right now – he immediately jumped to the stairs. doesn’t mean hes not trying to help achilles, but I don’t see this as healthy or a win at all. it’s a storm brewing
Getting angry with Achilles cause he’s out of it doesn’t really sound like Pepper. He’s been considerate with both Chloe and Achilles in less than ideal circumstances before. Pepper has helped people out of wanting to help them plenty of times, I don’t see why you’d read this as something else. If he messes up here, it’s out of overextending himself with good intentions.
Pepper jumped to the stairs because he is incredibly worried about them. Not even counting the metaphysical implications, it’s a secret that could hurt him or the people around him if it got out (Consider: Mars might also freak out if she discovers that stairs are real), and he has to share this secret with someone who is -very- bad at lying.
How is he setting the boundary? He’s doing exactly what Achilles implicitly asked for but with a frowny face. He hasn’t actually stopped any behavior or set any limits, just scowled and complied.
I do think it’s worth noting that this is seemingly the first time Achilles has deliberately sought Pepper out for advice/comfort instead of Pepper stumbling across him and inserting himself unasked for. “I do this seemingly at random, but when you want me to do it, I won’t say no or express any hesitation or reason for why now is different, but by God I’m gonna stomp around while I do it!!” is silly imo.
Pepper needs to eat and sleep. I would say that “I am going to take care of my own needs, even if I am helping you” is a boundary. Saying he’ll do this before he does it would be the considerate thing to do and the way he went about it here comes off as a bit cold, but again Pepper isn’t at full battery right now.
Hmm. I see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree on that being a boundary. It would be a meaningful boundary if Achilles had *asked* him to forgo eating or sleeping, sure, but all Achilles has done thus far was answer Pepper’s question about what upset him, enter when invited, and then express confusion when Pepper signaled he would talk and then walked away without saying anything. No demands or requests have been made, reasonable or otherwise.
It’s of course understandable and sympathetic that Pepper is frustrated, especially since his involvement in Mars-Achilles drama ruined both his day yesterday in specific and also his life in general. But that doesn’t make that frustration a boundary, since none was made. It’s also a little absurd since Pepper, regardless of how much we agree with his reasons for doing so, has asked and demanded a lot of Achilles (keeping secrets, tried to command his engagement with masochism, asking him to stay the night and comfort him post-stairs…), and this is the first time Achilles has asked for anything in return, even implicitly, and what he’s asking for is something Pepper has been doing unprompted towards him literally the entire comic. Can’t ceaselessly get involved in other people’s business and then be mad when you’re involved.
exactly! pepper is kind of just stomping on achilles boundaries here, and to an extent everyone on halo head takes advantage of achilles or neglects him in some way. which makes sense that he’s so focused on pain becouse that was the first and only real meaningful interaction he got out of anyone
Okay not to be a cowardly both-sides centrist, but he isn’t really stomping on Achilles’ boundaries, either; Achilles hasn’t said, “You can’t do that” while Pepper does something anyway. He’s just being kind of rude in a way that’s ironic considering his past behavior.
I disagree with saying “everyone” takes advantage of Achilles; Mars is contradictory and emotionally uncommunicative, Pepper is paternalistic, Peachykeen is… something towards him, Chloe is a straight up antagonist towards him much of the time, and Clair adores and probably shares the healthiest and most reciprocal relationship out of all the characters with him. None of these are really what I would call neglect or a one-way street where they take from him without returning energy. Achilles is treated unfairly sometimes (often, even!), yes, but he isn’t a completely passive character at the mercy of the cruelty of the other residents, and imo thinking of him that way kind of sells him short as an interesting autonomous character in his own right.
Late to the party, but this is the first time I’ve read the comments for this and, I’m taken aback. I appreciate your analysis of this situation, and I just wanted to add a mention of something in; which is when Pepper was being pretty manipulative of Achilles . He would have forced him to lie if he could, but he squeezed him into omission, something Achilles is visibly uncomfortable with. It seems like Pepper does this with no concern for Achilles’ feelings, just to maintain control (rounding back around to that). Everyone on Halo Head has pro’s and con’s about their character, some more obvious than others. Pepper is clearly supposed to be the one that the audience relates to the most, someone who’s rational, cool, quiet, smart etc. But he HAS to have a darker side, which I believe his control freak part is. He needs everything to line up exactly how he wants it, nothing more and nothing less.
Lmk your thoughts ❤️
I feel like I’ve seen plenty of people identify with Achilles. Maybe not whole hog ‘loudly machosistic with no ability to read between the lines’, but still. He’s kind and innocent and some people see themselves in that.
While manipulating Achilles into doing that omission was very much framed as being a wrong thing, I disagree that it is. Keeping secrets is a way to keep yourself safe when people have power over you, and that’s just plain more important than how Achilles is or isn’t comfortable with doing something.
it’s kind of weird to set a boundary the first time someone willingly comes to you for help when you’ve spent all your time inserting yourself into the situation of that person though. of course we know WHY he did it but he’s nonetheless still taken advantage of achilles
Taking advantage of Achilles? He’s literally sacrificing his quiet evening to help him.
You could say it’s an unequal exchange cause Achilles has just helped Pepper before, but does that mean Chloe takes advantage of Pepper? Or does this line of reasoning only apply if you’ve been helpful in the past? Does Pepper owe Achilles perfection because he’s helped people before?
This exchange is unpleasant for Achilles I’m sure, and he did nothing to deserve that, but Pepper is still going out of his way to help. Pepper can’t keep up his old level of caretaking with the stress he’s under from the stairs revelation. Being considerate takes energy, and you can slip up like this if you’re low on juice. But Pepper can’t exactly send Achilles home thinking Mars just hangs out with him cause he pays her and tell him to come back when he’s rested, can he?
Pepper’s poor handling of this exchange is a consequence agreeing to talk with Achilles when he should be resting, and I think we can all agree that Pepper shouldn’t have just sent Achilles home. Just because we can sympathize with Achilles doesn’t mean this is a transgression on Pepper’s part.
you are still completely ignoring the part pepper volunteered himself over in over again, nobody, and I mean NOBODY asked him for it and multiple people in fact told him no, and he KNOWS that achilles is a very different and literal person who doesn’t understand social cues and conventions. I don’t care if pepper tried to take a “me” day from the problems he took on himself. he does not get to be resentful and cold to the people he’s forced vulnerability out of the second they actually want his help because they are in pain. he could at the very least had told achilles to follow him into the kitchen instead of just walking away from him like that and acting like he was a nuisance. if you’re going to be so willfully obtuse about it we don’t have to discuss this anymore.
I think your points are all true to varying degrees, but (Fellow, forgive me if this is presumptive) I think Fellow’s point is more that Pepper’s behavior is pretty emotionally understandable, not that it’s, like, legally defensible in the eyes of God or the court or whatever. Like, your point that Pepper started this standard himself is definitely valid, and I’ve made it myself in other comments! But we could just as easily make an identical charge about Achilles being hurt that Mars is monetarily motivated when he’s the one who agreed to that dynamic in the first place, right?
I don’t think the point of this scene is to identify which character is in the wrong and then cheer for them to get demolished, and even if it was, it’s kind of unfair to describe another reader coming down slightly differently — Fellow just said that it was understandable why Pepper was being rude and even agreed with you that Pepper should be helping Achilles, even if that means doing it imperfectly! — as them being willfully obtuse. It’s unfair to them, and Fellow is a real person. Achilles and Pepper are not.
I think it’s defensible in the eyes of god, actually. Trying to help Achilles here is a good thing. Saying this to Achilles isn’t a good thing, but you can do a good thing and still make mistakes while doing it.
I think talking about whether a character is in the wrong or not can provide interesting food for conversation, which is why I’m trying to explain why I think Pepper isn’t in the wrong here. I can recognize myself in Pepper in this case, when I’m tired or under stress I often lose a certain amount of conversational agility and can end up saying things that are cold or rude. I don’t always have the privilege or presence of mind to excuse myself from all conversation when that happens, and neither does Pepper here.
I am indeed not trying to be obtuse, I like discussing comics and I was trying to do that. But eden clearly does not want to engage anymore and so I’ll just leave them alone.
and you know what at the end of the day, when people like pepper do this, they are unintentionally being abusive because it destroys you on the inside to constantly be gulit tripped by someone helping you when you actually take them up on that and it’s low key as manipulative as pepper is with achilles
lol that’s very fair; the therapy speak is kind of silly for discussing a comic. That’s part of why I argued saying anyone in this interaction is “setting a boundary” is not a very good description. But otoh, when the plot is literally various personalities colliding and having conflict and figuring out their differences and trauma, it’s kind of hard not to lapse into it when discussing it.
In relation to all the other comments branching down here, one overlooked thing is that Pepper is simply as flawed as the rest of the cast. This isn’t he first time he has taken a shitty tone with someone despite the exchange being something he brought upon himself.
But like all the cast members, it makes a kind of internal sense. He’s tired. He’s prioritising himself. But he’s also blind to how he was the architect of his own gripes. And a major component of that is that he does in fact want to help others, right alongside his undercurrent of needing a sense of control due to his fears.
Metaphorically speaking, even a faithful companion of a guard-dog can exhaust itself barking at shadows and get grumpy after accidentally knocking its ball under a couch.
WHAT Pepper is doing is not bad or particularly nasty, but HOW he is communicating it in this moment is part of his negative aspect in how despite being otherwise emotionally intelligent and having a therapist outlook, he can slip into a patronising tone and doesn’t reflect on his own control/manipulation aspects. He’s a good guy, but he can be a touch hypocritical or judgemental despite his attempts to do good. Which is perhaps why it can be more infuriating to some simply because of his generally solid emotional intelligence, when he fails to use it, it comes across as more deliberate or at least a greater degree of being a headass (when he just isn’t the unphaseable beacon of chill he seems to aspire to be, making him sometimes blind to when he messes up in the moment).
One of the other recent choice/tonality brown-notes was how he insisted upon and then talked with Mars. And prior to that, how he treated/treats Achilles when it comes to control (which was far more understandable given his survival worries abt the stairs, but he is quite casual about it, again slipping into patronising).
Though by far my biggest wince from him was his attempt to ‘help’ Clair early on during her breakdown without giving her space to breathe / finish her meltdown first, and then immediately taking a dismissive tone when she didn’t welcome it while she was in a bitter / resentful state of mind. Complete with the set-up and immediate execution of the self-satisfied quip of “good luck with that” rather than using the emotional intelligence that he normally is known for. Some damage done merely because his insistence on immediacy wasn’t welcomed.
But, the cast is interesting because of their various flaws. We have to remember they’re not cardboard cutouts of saints and sinners even if their antics can give the surface appearance of that. As much as Peppers negative aspect severely irks me, I wouldn’t call him toxic as an entirely notable trait. Not really. Especially not knowing the things that contribute to him slipping into those behaviors. It makes sense, as frustrating as it is.
Being in a rush to frame entire characters as toxic, abusers, sex pests, manipulators, etc? It’s disheartening to me, even though they’re fictional characters. Its okay to simply find things distasteful. Intentions don’t always track 1:1 with actions. Outlooks can be flawed, troubled hearts and minds can operate as a lesser version of themselves. I don’t see a single one of the characters as ‘bad’ or ‘abusive’ or anything remotely approaching that. Though I certainly have opinions on whose lesser sides are more obnoxious and whose hidden hurts should be given priority, but that’s just opinion.
We take sides because we’re defending what we as viewers see, but they are down there in the weeds without our vantage point. They don’t get the benefit of thought-bubble Achilles, internal monologues, etc. Our teeth gnashing is much like what they’re doing : flawed reactions but meaning well.
More than anything in the comics, seeing people take staunch black and white positions on the characters and declare them good or bad is the most disheartening thing. They’re capable of being dicks, they’re capable of being sweethearts. Toss a coin and find out which in any given moment.
So give the idiot babies a break, they’re all messed up in their own ways. Yeah, they take liberties and can hurt each other, but so far it hasn’t been intentional. The fact there are no genuine bad intentions (thusfar) is refreshing, and also compellingly infuriating when we just want to see the blessed dumbasses get their closure and be chill. But that’s why we keep coming back. We need to be fed our traumaflakes and hope we’ll get an eventual slice of closure pie.
achilles once again feeling set aside for someone else’s priorities… his needs are an accessory alongside someone else’s gain
not that pepper is wrong to be assertive of his own boundaries. he’s betrayed his own comfort many times and is trying to prioritize his own recovery.
neither one would understand that about the other though
once again drawing attention to the fact that this lunatic redraws pepper’s bookshelf repeatedly. any normal (and weak willed) individual would just reuse a background every time to save themselves the trouble, but this (insanely gifted) sociopath sits down and meticulously redraws this shit. from multiple different angles too.
So funny to spend the entire comic insinuating yourself into other people’s drama and then getting pissed about it in the eleventh hour. Achilles deploy your bed metaphor
It probably won’t happen but I would love for Achilles to in the middle of talking through his Mars issues to accidentally drop the new Ares development and piss Pepper off further. The comic (very deliberately, I think) makes a big point of everyone focusing on interpersonal issues than the more metaphysical elements of the plot, probably because the two aspects of it are in some ways entwined in ways the characters themselves do not understand, and it would be fun to watch Pepper freak out over the dissonance. Or maybe Achilles could connect the dots between the whole “not thinking about uncomfortable stuff” and “being completely blindsided by his girlfriend’s own hangups” things himself?
THANK YOU pepper has no business feeling put out when he brought this on himself. it reminds me of my mom who constantly offers people money without them asking then rants to me about how everyone only likes her for her money
That’s a breath too far to me; it’s ironic that Pepper has set up expectations and then chafed under them, yes, as that’s kind of a running theme in the comic. These characters’ traits, whether positive or negative in isolation, have natural consequences that backlash against them. (See Clair breaking her back taking care of Chloe, Achilles being hurt that he pays Mars, Mars being hurt that Achilles doesn’t kiss her…) It’s the basic building block of character arcs. But the idea that he’s “wrong” (? he’s a fictional character who is being kind of rude in a comic about social dynamics, idk if “wrong” is a useful term) for feeling frustrated with this, even if it’s his own making, is off to me. It’s ironic, but surely the move isn’t “he must grit his teeth and do this forever now that he’s learned he can’t handle it”? He can feel however he pleases. If the comic’s point in this scene is building to “actually Pepper your feelings are dumb,” I would be very surprised. Especially since all he’s done at this point is be a little snippy for reasons he has not yet gotten to explain!
I am very sorry to hear that you have issues with your mother. Please understand I say this with as much politeness and kindness as possible: I understand that you’ve connected Pepper to your mom, and that’s perfectly fair, but maybe keep in mind that other readers do not have your experiences and will interpret Pepper’s relationship with Achilles, who in the comic is by any reasonable standard a peer, not his child or a dependent, differently, and that’s okay.
yeets himself into pepper’s bed, envelops himself in pepper’s scent, beckons pepper to come to bed
at first I thought there was an object permanence joke going on in the last panel lol
I am interested in the idea of achilles Learning from a book. or like, maybe pepper will infodump to him about the book, and it will spark conversation. Idk
Achilles goes to Pepper for advice and such because Pepper is actually trying to understand the little black cat, instead of using him as a pawn for personal gain. Not saying Mars is doing it JUST for personal gain, but Chloe’s big goofy mouth and brash attitude thinks it’s nothing more than that. Also, Clair is the only other one who accepts Achilles as is . . . for better or worse.
pepper is maybe being a bit rude but I think it’s completely understandable. I have to imagine the whole interrupting his night to cook for people and play therapy dog shtick could get old fast, especially given his inability to confide in others about his own problems. he hasn’t slept well in ages, either
This is one of the most validating and relatable things I’ve ever read… Like, I’ve either said, heard, or thought almost every line in the comic except Achilles’s, and Achilles still works for me as an analogy.
I haven’t read anything but the comic, but… I don’t feel I need to. Jay Eaton sent me, and I really, really needed this. And I’m learning a lot about coloring and simple line work. It’s wonderful.
I don’t think a lot of people understand how thinly one can be stretched, when one cares deeply about everyone, whether one wants to or not, and when nobody else is taking care of people’s needs, so one feels that one has to take care of everyone’s needs oneself.
Conversely, I think many people don’t fully understand that other people also have needs and limitations. I think a certain unconscious level of solipsism and “main character syndrome” is more common in our society than people generally believe.
It’s a little weird but I see it not just as Pepper giving priority to his own needs, but also as a sign of comfort and closeness, like they’re so comfortable around each other that Achilles can hang out at Peppers house and they can have serious conversations while Pepper is doing housework. Kind of like Achilles is now such a close presence in Pepper’s everyday life that they can hang out so leisurly that they don’t always have to have all their attention on each other, a friendship so close that he always has a place in Pepper’s house. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but somehow it gives me this kind of feeling.
people really getting mad over pepper here as if they wouldn’t also get mad if he just turned achilles away. damned if you do damned if you don’t. give pepper a break
kitty jump!!!
And here we are!
Good boys set boundaries.
It might seem a little cold, but Pepper WAS trying to have a day to himself and twice now was interrupted by someone looking for emotional validation and support. That seems to be the main reason anyone seeks him out lately, and that can’t be a good feeling.
if he was really setting the boundary he needs to, he’d be turning Achilles down completely, or at least being upfront that he was expecting a night to himself and wasn’t completely prepared for this. this is passive aggression at best and it’s going to make the upcoming conversation awful for everyone involved
He is setting the boundary, and he is trying to help Achilles. He is just doing these things imperfectly. Because, as we can tell, Pepper is working on a lower bandwidth at the moment.
It’d be worse if he turned down Achilles completely, wouldn’t it? Same goes for if he completely ignored his own needs and focused on Achilles. This is the right move, he’s just being a bit cold about it.
I just can’t see this conversation going anywhere except pepper getting angry or upset because hes clearly not in the position to be having it. he’s not saying no because he’s a control freak who wants a pulse on what’s going on with everyone else right now – he immediately jumped to the stairs. doesn’t mean hes not trying to help achilles, but I don’t see this as healthy or a win at all. it’s a storm brewing
Getting angry with Achilles cause he’s out of it doesn’t really sound like Pepper. He’s been considerate with both Chloe and Achilles in less than ideal circumstances before. Pepper has helped people out of wanting to help them plenty of times, I don’t see why you’d read this as something else. If he messes up here, it’s out of overextending himself with good intentions.
Pepper jumped to the stairs because he is incredibly worried about them. Not even counting the metaphysical implications, it’s a secret that could hurt him or the people around him if it got out (Consider: Mars might also freak out if she discovers that stairs are real), and he has to share this secret with someone who is -very- bad at lying.
How is he setting the boundary? He’s doing exactly what Achilles implicitly asked for but with a frowny face. He hasn’t actually stopped any behavior or set any limits, just scowled and complied.
I do think it’s worth noting that this is seemingly the first time Achilles has deliberately sought Pepper out for advice/comfort instead of Pepper stumbling across him and inserting himself unasked for. “I do this seemingly at random, but when you want me to do it, I won’t say no or express any hesitation or reason for why now is different, but by God I’m gonna stomp around while I do it!!” is silly imo.
Pepper needs to eat and sleep. I would say that “I am going to take care of my own needs, even if I am helping you” is a boundary. Saying he’ll do this before he does it would be the considerate thing to do and the way he went about it here comes off as a bit cold, but again Pepper isn’t at full battery right now.
Hmm. I see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree on that being a boundary. It would be a meaningful boundary if Achilles had *asked* him to forgo eating or sleeping, sure, but all Achilles has done thus far was answer Pepper’s question about what upset him, enter when invited, and then express confusion when Pepper signaled he would talk and then walked away without saying anything. No demands or requests have been made, reasonable or otherwise.
It’s of course understandable and sympathetic that Pepper is frustrated, especially since his involvement in Mars-Achilles drama ruined both his day yesterday in specific and also his life in general. But that doesn’t make that frustration a boundary, since none was made. It’s also a little absurd since Pepper, regardless of how much we agree with his reasons for doing so, has asked and demanded a lot of Achilles (keeping secrets, tried to command his engagement with masochism, asking him to stay the night and comfort him post-stairs…), and this is the first time Achilles has asked for anything in return, even implicitly, and what he’s asking for is something Pepper has been doing unprompted towards him literally the entire comic. Can’t ceaselessly get involved in other people’s business and then be mad when you’re involved.
exactly! pepper is kind of just stomping on achilles boundaries here, and to an extent everyone on halo head takes advantage of achilles or neglects him in some way. which makes sense that he’s so focused on pain becouse that was the first and only real meaningful interaction he got out of anyone
Okay not to be a cowardly both-sides centrist, but he isn’t really stomping on Achilles’ boundaries, either; Achilles hasn’t said, “You can’t do that” while Pepper does something anyway. He’s just being kind of rude in a way that’s ironic considering his past behavior.
I disagree with saying “everyone” takes advantage of Achilles; Mars is contradictory and emotionally uncommunicative, Pepper is paternalistic, Peachykeen is… something towards him, Chloe is a straight up antagonist towards him much of the time, and Clair adores and probably shares the healthiest and most reciprocal relationship out of all the characters with him. None of these are really what I would call neglect or a one-way street where they take from him without returning energy. Achilles is treated unfairly sometimes (often, even!), yes, but he isn’t a completely passive character at the mercy of the cruelty of the other residents, and imo thinking of him that way kind of sells him short as an interesting autonomous character in his own right.
Late to the party, but this is the first time I’ve read the comments for this and, I’m taken aback. I appreciate your analysis of this situation, and I just wanted to add a mention of something in; which is when Pepper was being pretty manipulative of Achilles . He would have forced him to lie if he could, but he squeezed him into omission, something Achilles is visibly uncomfortable with. It seems like Pepper does this with no concern for Achilles’ feelings, just to maintain control (rounding back around to that). Everyone on Halo Head has pro’s and con’s about their character, some more obvious than others. Pepper is clearly supposed to be the one that the audience relates to the most, someone who’s rational, cool, quiet, smart etc. But he HAS to have a darker side, which I believe his control freak part is. He needs everything to line up exactly how he wants it, nothing more and nothing less.
Lmk your thoughts ❤️
I feel like I’ve seen plenty of people identify with Achilles. Maybe not whole hog ‘loudly machosistic with no ability to read between the lines’, but still. He’s kind and innocent and some people see themselves in that.
While manipulating Achilles into doing that omission was very much framed as being a wrong thing, I disagree that it is. Keeping secrets is a way to keep yourself safe when people have power over you, and that’s just plain more important than how Achilles is or isn’t comfortable with doing something.
it’s kind of weird to set a boundary the first time someone willingly comes to you for help when you’ve spent all your time inserting yourself into the situation of that person though. of course we know WHY he did it but he’s nonetheless still taken advantage of achilles
Taking advantage of Achilles? He’s literally sacrificing his quiet evening to help him.
You could say it’s an unequal exchange cause Achilles has just helped Pepper before, but does that mean Chloe takes advantage of Pepper? Or does this line of reasoning only apply if you’ve been helpful in the past? Does Pepper owe Achilles perfection because he’s helped people before?
This exchange is unpleasant for Achilles I’m sure, and he did nothing to deserve that, but Pepper is still going out of his way to help. Pepper can’t keep up his old level of caretaking with the stress he’s under from the stairs revelation. Being considerate takes energy, and you can slip up like this if you’re low on juice. But Pepper can’t exactly send Achilles home thinking Mars just hangs out with him cause he pays her and tell him to come back when he’s rested, can he?
Pepper’s poor handling of this exchange is a consequence agreeing to talk with Achilles when he should be resting, and I think we can all agree that Pepper shouldn’t have just sent Achilles home. Just because we can sympathize with Achilles doesn’t mean this is a transgression on Pepper’s part.
you are still completely ignoring the part pepper volunteered himself over in over again, nobody, and I mean NOBODY asked him for it and multiple people in fact told him no, and he KNOWS that achilles is a very different and literal person who doesn’t understand social cues and conventions. I don’t care if pepper tried to take a “me” day from the problems he took on himself. he does not get to be resentful and cold to the people he’s forced vulnerability out of the second they actually want his help because they are in pain. he could at the very least had told achilles to follow him into the kitchen instead of just walking away from him like that and acting like he was a nuisance. if you’re going to be so willfully obtuse about it we don’t have to discuss this anymore.
I think your points are all true to varying degrees, but (Fellow, forgive me if this is presumptive) I think Fellow’s point is more that Pepper’s behavior is pretty emotionally understandable, not that it’s, like, legally defensible in the eyes of God or the court or whatever. Like, your point that Pepper started this standard himself is definitely valid, and I’ve made it myself in other comments! But we could just as easily make an identical charge about Achilles being hurt that Mars is monetarily motivated when he’s the one who agreed to that dynamic in the first place, right?
I don’t think the point of this scene is to identify which character is in the wrong and then cheer for them to get demolished, and even if it was, it’s kind of unfair to describe another reader coming down slightly differently — Fellow just said that it was understandable why Pepper was being rude and even agreed with you that Pepper should be helping Achilles, even if that means doing it imperfectly! — as them being willfully obtuse. It’s unfair to them, and Fellow is a real person. Achilles and Pepper are not.
I think it’s defensible in the eyes of god, actually. Trying to help Achilles here is a good thing. Saying this to Achilles isn’t a good thing, but you can do a good thing and still make mistakes while doing it.
I think talking about whether a character is in the wrong or not can provide interesting food for conversation, which is why I’m trying to explain why I think Pepper isn’t in the wrong here. I can recognize myself in Pepper in this case, when I’m tired or under stress I often lose a certain amount of conversational agility and can end up saying things that are cold or rude. I don’t always have the privilege or presence of mind to excuse myself from all conversation when that happens, and neither does Pepper here.
I am indeed not trying to be obtuse, I like discussing comics and I was trying to do that. But eden clearly does not want to engage anymore and so I’ll just leave them alone.
and you know what at the end of the day, when people like pepper do this, they are unintentionally being abusive because it destroys you on the inside to constantly be gulit tripped by someone helping you when you actually take them up on that and it’s low key as manipulative as pepper is with achilles
does anybody in this thread smoke weed
please learn what abusive means before throwing it out willy nilly
lol cool please re read what I said, how it’s *unintentional and how that relates to what I described
yall act like therapists i swear
lol that’s very fair; the therapy speak is kind of silly for discussing a comic. That’s part of why I argued saying anyone in this interaction is “setting a boundary” is not a very good description. But otoh, when the plot is literally various personalities colliding and having conflict and figuring out their differences and trauma, it’s kind of hard not to lapse into it when discussing it.
In relation to all the other comments branching down here, one overlooked thing is that Pepper is simply as flawed as the rest of the cast. This isn’t he first time he has taken a shitty tone with someone despite the exchange being something he brought upon himself.
But like all the cast members, it makes a kind of internal sense. He’s tired. He’s prioritising himself. But he’s also blind to how he was the architect of his own gripes. And a major component of that is that he does in fact want to help others, right alongside his undercurrent of needing a sense of control due to his fears.
Metaphorically speaking, even a faithful companion of a guard-dog can exhaust itself barking at shadows and get grumpy after accidentally knocking its ball under a couch.
WHAT Pepper is doing is not bad or particularly nasty, but HOW he is communicating it in this moment is part of his negative aspect in how despite being otherwise emotionally intelligent and having a therapist outlook, he can slip into a patronising tone and doesn’t reflect on his own control/manipulation aspects. He’s a good guy, but he can be a touch hypocritical or judgemental despite his attempts to do good. Which is perhaps why it can be more infuriating to some simply because of his generally solid emotional intelligence, when he fails to use it, it comes across as more deliberate or at least a greater degree of being a headass (when he just isn’t the unphaseable beacon of chill he seems to aspire to be, making him sometimes blind to when he messes up in the moment).
One of the other recent choice/tonality brown-notes was how he insisted upon and then talked with Mars. And prior to that, how he treated/treats Achilles when it comes to control (which was far more understandable given his survival worries abt the stairs, but he is quite casual about it, again slipping into patronising).
Though by far my biggest wince from him was his attempt to ‘help’ Clair early on during her breakdown without giving her space to breathe / finish her meltdown first, and then immediately taking a dismissive tone when she didn’t welcome it while she was in a bitter / resentful state of mind. Complete with the set-up and immediate execution of the self-satisfied quip of “good luck with that” rather than using the emotional intelligence that he normally is known for. Some damage done merely because his insistence on immediacy wasn’t welcomed.
But, the cast is interesting because of their various flaws. We have to remember they’re not cardboard cutouts of saints and sinners even if their antics can give the surface appearance of that. As much as Peppers negative aspect severely irks me, I wouldn’t call him toxic as an entirely notable trait. Not really. Especially not knowing the things that contribute to him slipping into those behaviors. It makes sense, as frustrating as it is.
Being in a rush to frame entire characters as toxic, abusers, sex pests, manipulators, etc? It’s disheartening to me, even though they’re fictional characters. Its okay to simply find things distasteful. Intentions don’t always track 1:1 with actions. Outlooks can be flawed, troubled hearts and minds can operate as a lesser version of themselves. I don’t see a single one of the characters as ‘bad’ or ‘abusive’ or anything remotely approaching that. Though I certainly have opinions on whose lesser sides are more obnoxious and whose hidden hurts should be given priority, but that’s just opinion.
We take sides because we’re defending what we as viewers see, but they are down there in the weeds without our vantage point. They don’t get the benefit of thought-bubble Achilles, internal monologues, etc. Our teeth gnashing is much like what they’re doing : flawed reactions but meaning well.
More than anything in the comics, seeing people take staunch black and white positions on the characters and declare them good or bad is the most disheartening thing. They’re capable of being dicks, they’re capable of being sweethearts. Toss a coin and find out which in any given moment.
So give the idiot babies a break, they’re all messed up in their own ways. Yeah, they take liberties and can hurt each other, but so far it hasn’t been intentional. The fact there are no genuine bad intentions (thusfar) is refreshing, and also compellingly infuriating when we just want to see the blessed dumbasses get their closure and be chill. But that’s why we keep coming back. We need to be fed our traumaflakes and hope we’ll get an eventual slice of closure pie.
achilles once again feeling set aside for someone else’s priorities… his needs are an accessory alongside someone else’s gain
not that pepper is wrong to be assertive of his own boundaries. he’s betrayed his own comfort many times and is trying to prioritize his own recovery.
neither one would understand that about the other though
How DARE Pepper have his own needs and not IMMEDIATELY prioritize the kitty:clair-say:
truth nuke
once again drawing attention to the fact that this lunatic redraws pepper’s bookshelf repeatedly. any normal (and weak willed) individual would just reuse a background every time to save themselves the trouble, but this (insanely gifted) sociopath sits down and meticulously redraws this shit. from multiple different angles too.
also the cat being catlike again. 10/10
Reason #1,588,576,132 we love batty
More batty food? oh boy!
he’s getting through a lot of bacon recently
Achilles Enjoyer you are a genius and I’m copying you
hm. the blanket
So funny to spend the entire comic insinuating yourself into other people’s drama and then getting pissed about it in the eleventh hour. Achilles deploy your bed metaphor
It probably won’t happen but I would love for Achilles to in the middle of talking through his Mars issues to accidentally drop the new Ares development and piss Pepper off further. The comic (very deliberately, I think) makes a big point of everyone focusing on interpersonal issues than the more metaphysical elements of the plot, probably because the two aspects of it are in some ways entwined in ways the characters themselves do not understand, and it would be fun to watch Pepper freak out over the dissonance. Or maybe Achilles could connect the dots between the whole “not thinking about uncomfortable stuff” and “being completely blindsided by his girlfriend’s own hangups” things himself?
THANK YOU pepper has no business feeling put out when he brought this on himself. it reminds me of my mom who constantly offers people money without them asking then rants to me about how everyone only likes her for her money
That’s a breath too far to me; it’s ironic that Pepper has set up expectations and then chafed under them, yes, as that’s kind of a running theme in the comic. These characters’ traits, whether positive or negative in isolation, have natural consequences that backlash against them. (See Clair breaking her back taking care of Chloe, Achilles being hurt that he pays Mars, Mars being hurt that Achilles doesn’t kiss her…) It’s the basic building block of character arcs. But the idea that he’s “wrong” (? he’s a fictional character who is being kind of rude in a comic about social dynamics, idk if “wrong” is a useful term) for feeling frustrated with this, even if it’s his own making, is off to me. It’s ironic, but surely the move isn’t “he must grit his teeth and do this forever now that he’s learned he can’t handle it”? He can feel however he pleases. If the comic’s point in this scene is building to “actually Pepper your feelings are dumb,” I would be very surprised. Especially since all he’s done at this point is be a little snippy for reasons he has not yet gotten to explain!
I am very sorry to hear that you have issues with your mother. Please understand I say this with as much politeness and kindness as possible: I understand that you’ve connected Pepper to your mom, and that’s perfectly fair, but maybe keep in mind that other readers do not have your experiences and will interpret Pepper’s relationship with Achilles, who in the comic is by any reasonable standard a peer, not his child or a dependent, differently, and that’s okay.
yeets himself into pepper’s bed, envelops himself in pepper’s scent, beckons pepper to come to bed
at first I thought there was an object permanence joke going on in the last panel lol
I am interested in the idea of achilles Learning from a book. or like, maybe pepper will infodump to him about the book, and it will spark conversation. Idk
they should kiss
poor Pepper still isn’t sleeping upstairs yet : (
also this is a test..
-5 days later-
YIPPEE MY TEST WORKED 😀
Achilles still has the drawing of Ares with him, right?
Achilles goes to Pepper for advice and such because Pepper is actually trying to understand the little black cat, instead of using him as a pawn for personal gain. Not saying Mars is doing it JUST for personal gain, but Chloe’s big goofy mouth and brash attitude thinks it’s nothing more than that. Also, Clair is the only other one who accepts Achilles as is . . . for better or worse.
hopefully pepper recovers from this little social hiccup and asserts his needs more politely
pepper is maybe being a bit rude but I think it’s completely understandable. I have to imagine the whole interrupting his night to cook for people and play therapy dog shtick could get old fast, especially given his inability to confide in others about his own problems. he hasn’t slept well in ages, either
also I’m very excited to see what he cooks up this time batty always draws such delectable food………………
…and here I am, caught up.
This is one of the most validating and relatable things I’ve ever read… Like, I’ve either said, heard, or thought almost every line in the comic except Achilles’s, and Achilles still works for me as an analogy.
I haven’t read anything but the comic, but… I don’t feel I need to. Jay Eaton sent me, and I really, really needed this. And I’m learning a lot about coloring and simple line work. It’s wonderful.
they’re ATTACKING my poor dude pepper in the comments send backup 🙁
I don’t think a lot of people understand how thinly one can be stretched, when one cares deeply about everyone, whether one wants to or not, and when nobody else is taking care of people’s needs, so one feels that one has to take care of everyone’s needs oneself.
Conversely, I think many people don’t fully understand that other people also have needs and limitations. I think a certain unconscious level of solipsism and “main character syndrome” is more common in our society than people generally believe.
It’s a little weird but I see it not just as Pepper giving priority to his own needs, but also as a sign of comfort and closeness, like they’re so comfortable around each other that Achilles can hang out at Peppers house and they can have serious conversations while Pepper is doing housework. Kind of like Achilles is now such a close presence in Pepper’s everyday life that they can hang out so leisurly that they don’t always have to have all their attention on each other, a friendship so close that he always has a place in Pepper’s house. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but somehow it gives me this kind of feeling.
i don’t think pepper is solely responsible for achilles feelings… justice for the dog he just wants his dinner omg
people really getting mad over pepper here as if they wouldn’t also get mad if he just turned achilles away. damned if you do damned if you don’t. give pepper a break